Not As Crazy As You Think Podcast

An Interview with Vesper Moore, Part 1: Mad Liberation, Disability Justice, and Indigenous Reclamation: (S3, E4)

December 17, 2021 Jen Gaita Siciliano Season 3 Episode 4
Not As Crazy As You Think Podcast
An Interview with Vesper Moore, Part 1: Mad Liberation, Disability Justice, and Indigenous Reclamation: (S3, E4)
Show Notes Transcript

In the episode, "Mad Liberation, Disability Justice, and Indigenous Reclamation: An Interview with Vesper Moore: Part 1 (S3, E4), " Vesper dives into the discussion on the mental health industrial complex and the social justice movements that are  currently fighting it.  Mad liberation activist, trainer, writer, and psychiatric survivor, Vesper Moore is COO of Kiva Centers, a Peer Support community network serving as a crisis alternative, and has worked as a consultant for both the United States government and the United Nations in shaping strategies around trauma and mad and disability rights. In the episode, Vesper shares how oppressed people historically have been considered the "mad" to be contained, and how the very structure of capitalism only respects those in society who are able to work. Vesper is also the restorer of the historical archives of Madness Network News and shares how in 1984, the anti-psychiatry journal was thrown into the ocean.  Vesper also discusses the arrival of plant medicine onto the market of psychiatric therapy, and how its sacred essence  may be maintained if indigenous involvement in the infrastructure were central.

#KivaCenters #madliberation ##madrights #madnessnetworknews #psychiatricsurvivor #abolishpsychiatry #psychiatryisnotscience #indigenousrights #disabilityjustice #humanrights #socialjustice #dismantlecapitalism #plantmedicine #bipolarartist #psychedelics

Follow Vesper:  www.vespermoore.com
@
vesper_j_moore

Suggested videos in interview on: Psychedelics, Madness & Awakening Conference 2021
https://youtu.be/IxG5H3DLo5A
https://youtu.be/LRmvcO8V_Hk
https://youtu.be/DFDQgPskw10

Please visit my website at: http://www.jengaitasiciliano.com​

Don't forget to subscribe to the Not As Crazy As You Think YouTube channel @SicilianoJen

Connect:
Instagram: @jengaita
LinkedIn: @jensiciliano
Twitter: @jsiciliano

Jen Gaita Siciliano:

Hi guys and welcome. This is Jen Gaita Siciliana artist, memoir writer, bipolar psychiatric survivor and your host of not as crazy as you think podcast, the place that offers an alternative perspective on Mental Illness highlighting creativity, non conventional healing and breaking on through to the other side. If you're ready for a new narrative on the mental realm that celebrates crazy and cool without penalty, then not as crazy as your think is for you. Hello, this is Jen Gaita Siciliana, your host of Not As Crazy As You Think Podcast. I am thrilled today to announce that we have Vesper Moore with us, an amazing individual who I'm thrilled to have on the show today. Vesper is a mad liberation activist, trainer, writer and psychiatric survivor and CEO of Kiva centers, they have been advocating as a part of the med movement for several years fighting for us, disabled people, psychiatric survivors, internationally and nationally, consultant working for both United States government and the United Nations shaping strategies that affect Madden disability rights. Vesper is a queer, mad indigenous person rewriting the narrative of psychiatry that has been forced upon us. That's where I thank you for being on the show your wonderful influence out there. Thank you.

Vesper Moore:

It's wonderful to be here. Thank you.

Jen Gaita Siciliano:

So tell us a little bit about your background for the audience, how you became acquainted with the mental health industry, and what has brought you to where you are today in your work.

Vesper Moore:

My work, and my involvement with, you know, psychiatry, in the mental health industrial complex mental health system, however you'd like to refer to it as, as you know, it's it's very personal, mainly because of the the abuses and the harms that I experienced, that, you know, we're from the psychiatric system, I spent four years in and out of psychiatric institutions. So that really shaped my experience, it was, it was seeing a lot of other people as well as myself, who are harmed by a system who had their autonomy stripped away from them. And, and the fact that, you know, we utilize a profession and, you know, to, to incite, you know, biochemical warfare on the, on the public in such a way is, it's just, it's just so harmful. And when I say biochemical warfare, I mean that, like, in such a, in such a specific way, you know, there are these medications, these psychiatric drugs, that are harming the public, people are not informed of what it does to their bodies, their minds, how inherently disabling that is, on top of how inaccessible systems are, and how it affects our mortality and our lifespan, you know, I'm so I think, for me, the inspiration between that work was being locked behind those brick walls and looking back and saying, I'm going to do something about this, I think every activist in our movement really has one of those moments, where they're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, I'm, I'm going to really speak out about this, I'm gonna really, really, um, cause a fuss, Create a commotion. Create a revolution.

Jen Gaita Siciliano:

So yeah, it's almost like a push back. Like, I the only way I'm going to be heard is if I fall out fight this, you had had pretty a crazy experience. You were inside for a long time, right? Yeah, I was. Wow. And that. So that really has shaped, I think, the visceral energy behind your movement, because, you know, someone like me, I didn't, I was it throughout the course of my life, 10 days each time, but disabled each time, you know, because of the over like, the push of very harmful chemicals into my body, again, having to get adjusted and losing professional relationships. But I took a long time, I believe to get on the bandwagon. Someone like you, it's almost like you were it was like an intensive course in, you know, the abuses of psychiatry, and then you threw yourself in and that's so thrilling to me, because, you know, you've done so much one of the things that you always point to is the historical abuses of how this has been going on for so long with certain groups, through eugenics, you know, early at the turn of the century, how that was going on with so many immigrants who are coming to this country and anybody who doesn't seem to fall in line with the traditional, normal characteristics of what colonialism, and the white man has pushed forth, as you know, these are the normals. And these are the abnormals. This is how you line up. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Vesper Moore:

Yes. And I think, even beyond colonization and colonialism, that there is also an aspect of how spiritually in tunes people have been, and how emotional distress at times for people could be an inhibitor for survival, that has caused the general public right to feel like we have to keep those people separate, we have to do this. And this has existed in some manifestation in different societies historically, as long as humanity has existed. So um, I do want to speak to that, because there's like, you know, there's moments in like the Neolithic Age, where if, like, if people were believed to have bad energy in their skulls that other people would, would use, you know, rocks to actually chip out parts of their skulls to let that bad energy out. And that was often you know, like, like, people who were, who were mad that their emotional distress or maybe their spiritual energy was like manifesting in such a way, where it was like, Okay, there's clearly something wrong with this person, we have to address it somehow this need to address this need to fix that has kind of evolved along with human beings, for so long. So, but I think when we speak to colonization and colonialism and the particular impact, we're speaking to how anyone who does not fit this sis, white, hetero, patriarchal, like, state of being could be deemed as mad because it is against the conventions of what exists in our society. And that's as well as approaches and thought processes and how things you know, exist. I think people like to, you know, I think there's been some discourse historically about about, you know, when we talk about NAD liberation and psychiatric survivors, and, and that inherent connection to, to oppressed identities, what does that mean? I argue that our movement is a global feminist movement.

Jen Gaita Siciliano:

Hmm. Explain that a little bit. That's very interesting.

Vesper Moore:

Of course, I, I speak to that, from from the respect of if you're thinking about how all people are oppressed, right? And you think about how particularly feminist movements and different waves have concentrated not only on what femininity is to society, but all identities, all oppressed identities, um, and you think about, you think about some of the waves with feminism, that as you look at NAD identities, and particularly madness, it has inherent ties to all oppressed identities. So for example, women, or rather, specifically, people assigned female at birth, receiving, you know, or rather being ascribed, diagnoses like hysteria, receive, you know, having treatments like womb, I'm sorry, ovary compressors, um, things like, you know, there's there are horrible atrocities that have specifically occurred with people who are assigned female at birth. And that is, like, historically, so important to psychiatric oppression that I need to speak to that, but then there's, these occurrences have also happened to indigenous people with like, you know, specifically what was referred to as Indian psychiatric institutions and centers and, and, and specifically how our spiritual identities, our culture, our race, so many important parts of who we are, were deemed, you know, crazy, were deemed mad, and we were put away and, and again, you know, chemically restrained in such horrible ways. And then there's, you know, diagnoses around trans identity, there's diagnoses around, you know, gay people and, you know, homosexuality, specifically being a diagnosis for a period of time. So there's, you know, all of these oppressed identities that have existed historically. And then, if you just think about the overall context of disabled people, if you think about disability, and what is disabling in our society and how we can define like a social model of disability, that that's just it, you know, there's nothing wrong with our minds and bodies as we are but rather society is not accessible to us, and that disabled people have always been put on the outside It's an isolated historically, you know, for a very long time. So, you know, if you look at Spartan society, and how they would take a disabled child, disabled baby specifically and kill that baby because it would inhibit the strength of a society, right? Or if you look at, um, the the, the Holocaust alongside Jewish people, you also had gay people, he also had disabled people who weren't necessarily Jewish, but also in those camps, right? You have so many different societies that have just harmed and killed disabled people, mad people, and it's it's so important. Just recently in Singapore, there is a man who was incarcerated for 10 years. He had, he had what was described as a learning disability and a mental health diagnosis. And this disabled man in the public was he was being charged for, for bringing drugs into the country. And they kept him for 10 years, and they were going to publicly execute him by hanging in, in Singapore, and the fact that we're talking about this now, this isn't something that is historical this, this was last week. Yeah, we were advocating, and I witnessed a panel on this that, you know, my colleague of mine me was on, and I was just in sheer shock of bias here, I am going about my day in this horrible, you know, esthetic capitalist society, and you're on the other side of the worlds, you know, people are trying to fight for a disabled person not to be publicly executed.

Jen Gaita Siciliano:

Yeah, yeah. I, you know, it's sad. I mean, you know, you look at it, this is a reality that's happening globally. But the fact is, we have our own set of Western brutality. So, you know, we don't take it maybe to that level. But, you know, interestingly enough, and I know they you know, you're very involved with the international community, there seems to be a lot more alternative options, especially like with peer support, in terms of peer respite, stuff like that, like, in America, there's not that much the limitations of what we have as alternatives, when we have a very high emergency situation, they are so limited, that we almost put ourselves in disastrous harm's way, because that's the only option available to us. So, you know, your involvement with this peer support movement, like, how do you see the future in terms of how alternative mental health systems can evolve, I know that you also have brought up that, you know, any healthcare system can become the next oppressor. Because, you know, that's the nature of systems when you have people who are, you know, running things and placed in the positions of, oh, this is what I'm doing. And I'm in charge, and I'm something of a leader. That's how things can get Miss balanced. So how do we prevent and how do we move forward in a more, you mean, setting for our future people who are in distress?

Vesper Moore:

Of course, of course, and I think, you know, I'm speaking to a lot of perspectives. You know, throughout this interview, I'm speaking to the anti psychiatry, psychiatric abolition perspective, I'm speaking to the Mad perspective, I speak to the peer support perspective. You know, and I speak to the disability justice perspective. And I think a lot of those are interconnected. And then they also all have conflicting ideologies, for many different reasons. And I think that there's a lot of validity on a lot of different sides. And at the same time, I can see that, you know, when I, when I speak to my work as a mad abolitionist, that it's, it's so crucial that we have all of these facets of discourse and ideology and actually speak in conversation to to kind of evolve the paradigm in our movements dash movement. Um, so when, when speaking about pure support, you know, and pure support as a movement in its own right. The reason why I'm going to utilize the term movement is because movement is a gathering of people who share a similar ideology working towards a similar goal. And in peer support in that respect. You have roots from the labor movement, you have roots in the psychiatric survivor, mad movement, and roots from different recovery movements and ideologies and so on. Peer Support exists as a naturally occurring, like alternative, right? To the existing service system, right, the existing mental health industrial complex that we build in community, or we can build a community, but you can also embed it within which, you know, again, you know, you end up stepping into CO opting, and then what can occur with peer support inside of those service systems and, and try to utilize it in a way to kind of change the paradigm of how we approach you know, Mad people and people experiencing emotional distress. So one of the things that I think is so important about peer support is is that is that the validity of peer support gives us the means to self sustain and community similarly to how mutual aid does, you know, I think peer support as survivor led mutual aid, you know, where we're building our own networks, that's, that's historically why peer support was created, right, was for that reason, and I mean, the formalization of peer support within the mental health industrial complex, was created with the purpose of we're going to build our own services, you know, we our own experts, we can figure this stuff out. And those alternatives being built, while simultaneously we dismantle the existing systems that are oppressing us. The great thing about it is, is that now, as we decarceration deinstitutionalized, our people have somewhere to go for support, it makes it then ties into disability justice, where we think about the principle of sustainability, right? It is, it is sustainable, when we work together, and we are interconnected. But we have to build it, right, we, we have to have that. And I think that simultaneously, you know, with the racism, of professionalism, and the oppressive nature of professionalism, it's harmful to peer support. So it's, it's, it's really a, it's a give and take there where you have, okay, so we have these crisis alternatives in the community that are important for us to have for our people, for the liberation of our minds, you know. And then also, we have peer support being used as a tool for manipulation and an inherent industry that's being built out of them.

Jen Gaita Siciliano:

It's so hard, because what do you do? Do you come up with some kind of Bill of Rights of guidance? And you know, for each, because then it becomes something institutionalized? Right? It's like, okay, well, these are the these are the rules don't go beyond these rules, right. But it's almost like a lot of what we want is just you mean treatment. So it should just be human rights, billing, everybody should just kind of go by, like, let's treat people like human beings. You know, this is something that I feel has been lost. I'm reading this book right now. And oh, god, she's so amazing. It's called the mind fixers. Why I've read the mind. Oh, my gosh, it's so amazing, because, you know, she liked nicely puts everything into categories historically. And, you know, it's just a reminder of where these labels began, you know, it's just okay. Well, we don't like the way this looks. It's all behavior related. They never really, they, from the very beginning, they never discussed any thoughts that were in the heads of any of these people. So all of this nonsense that people have this idea that, Oh, yeah, I've discovered that I have schizophrenia, or they've discovered this and all they're doing is describing behaviors. They have no interest in what's in your mind. And I guess this is something that something of a segue, you know, there's a lot of talk about psychedelic medicine on the forefront. And you know, you were involved with some amazing panels. Yeah. What was that called?

Vesper Moore:

Actually, I think it was psychedelics madness and awakening, harm reduction conference.

Jen Gaita Siciliano:

I'm going to have the links to that in your description for the podcasts if that's okay, because they were, you know, it was really, really interesting because it did bring up a lot of issues that we have, I have discussed as well with others about psychedelic medicine and that, you know, there's a sacredness to using plant medicine. And that's because, you know, in these cultures, right, they have a whole way of approaching the plant and having a relationship with the plant and allowing really the plant to tell you what needs to teach And there's that that's not the way a lot of the psychedelic medicine approach is formulating. And then, you know, because there's so much psych psychiatric push behind it in an industry. And yet, we also know that the approach is much more humane, because a lot of these things are not a daily, you know, like pill. But they are kind of, I guess, co opting, as you say, like, you know, the experience a lot of these centers who are developing these research, opportunities for people, the essence of what that plant medicine is supposed to do the actual magic inside, it is changed in some way so that it fits that colonial delivery system.

Vesper Moore:

Yeah, it's the, it's the weaponization of plant medicine.

Jen Gaita Siciliano:

So how do we prevent that?

Vesper Moore:

I mean, I would say that, you know, it's, it's almost inevitable that a lot of it's going to happen, because there there's a seeking to regulate, you know, psychedelic alternatives. And then, but within that regulation, which, you know, to a certain degree, you know, is, it's to make sure that you're not taking too much, right. Um, but, but also, it's, it's the piece of like, that these psychedelics are then not going to be affordable to the public. So it just becomes the rich white man's, you know, medicine, alternative that's not affordable to the mat, unhoused person who might be struggling on the streets. So I think that there's a piece of that, too. And I think that that's often forgotten from the conversation. But I think a good way for us to, to avoid taking such such wonderful plant medicines and, and industrializing them in such a way is actually considering that the, the distribution and application of it be in its natural form as much as possible. And actually, that there is a, there have to be groups that consider the fact of like, the the policies and regulations that would be needed to then in that masked distribution, and how how these these medications end up being FDA approved, that, that there's not other chemical substances included, right, in these things. And I, you know, I think that there, there's, there's infrastructure that needs to be built, and that we shouldn't roll it out too quickly. Yeah, I mean, see, it's difficult, because, you know, the other part of me just wants to say, well, you know, why don't we just embrace a more inclusive, you know, understanding of what it means to do these things. I want to learn from the people who have used this in their culture for centuries. You know, I don't really want to care, I don't really care what the guy says, who's the expert, and he's wearing lab coat, like, to me, that doesn't mean anything to me. So, you know, like, I hope that something is preserved along those lines. And I do know that a lot of people in the movement, they do want that, you know, they want that ability to say, well, listen, I want to use it therapeutically recreationally. But I wanted to be able to distribute it in the way I need, or... You know, I'm just speaking in terms of us, like we have governments, we exist in the ways that we do right now, you know, um, perfect, perfect ideal way of how this should be taken is there should be ancestral guidance, there should be elder guidance, right being like, hey, like, this is how historically, I have used it. And my and my elders have used it, this is how you can utilize it. This is how you can release it from your body after utilizing it. These are the things you can do. And then having a shared network of information in that way, also having all that information compiled for future generations to pass on. I mean, there's a lot of indigenous societies doing this. That's very hopeful for me, because that's the vision that I have, like, it's almost like in another lifetime, I hope that occurs, you know what I mean? Like, I want to live in that world. So I hope that that's really something like gains a lot of backing and movement within those communities. Yeah. I hope so too. I think it's, I think it's, it's the importance of when we talk about sharing indigenous knowledge. I think, you know, that there is there is the aspect of cultural appropriation and where exactly does that come? Right, you come in, right to appreciate something you speak to where it comes from, and you preserve its history and you pay respect to that culture. And as long as you're doing that, you should be fine. I think it's always best to learn and contribute to the, the economies of those tribes, and support them, and the best you can. And in exchange, we could learn from a lot of these these plant medicines that exist in these different tribes. But I think right now, our society is built in a way where, where we're killing indigenous people. And, you know, just going back to how this all is reflective in the Mad community, and how so much of what we fight for, you know, is really, to me fighting for the overall umbrella of human rights. Because what I feel like what we found in the COVID experience, is that everyone can start experiencing mental distress. And then it was like, oh, okay, I almost felt like oh, my god, like, this is the you know, that the floodgates are opening, like, Oh, this is great. Like, let's get them all in, you know, like, Come on, man, people. And in a way that hasn't changed much, but I feel like some people are still like, looking for something. And and they are always looking to the X hurts, right. But what is an expert mean? I mean, certainly the people who have lived experience, they know things that that others don't and, and certainly the old, they also know what it's like to be on the other end of things like Satanism, and and you talk about like, ableism? Can you like, share what those words mean? Because if these are going to be part of the new conversation, then I think that like, people really need to know what those things mean, what are those things mean? And what are examples of those things shown in our society? For sure, and I'm gonna, I'm going to also speak to something that that my friend Matthew says a lot and I sail so you know, lived experience being in the past tense. I prefer to say living experience, no, we're all living now we all have valuable information to share. And that there's this idea that if it is lived in past tense, and you are recovered, that that is the only time in which your experience is valuable to be shared. And then you you spoke to have the interconnection of the Mad movement, how everything is kind of connected in that way. And indigenous rights is connected in that way. Because, you know, indigenous societies speak to how the world was pre colonization, pretty colonialism. Psychedelics is important because when you utilize psychedelics, you enter mad states, if you will have emotional distress to process information. And when you think of mycelium, which are related to, you know, mushrooms, those networks that exist within mushrooms underground, and how they communicate to each other miles apart, and how they're all interconnected, our society socially functions in a very similar way. And how, you know, and this leading back to our larger mad movement, you know, and when I talk about me, you know, multiple oppressed identities, when I talk about, you know, racism, I talk about, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, misogyny, who are trans misogyny, all of these things that exist in our society, they're all interconnected, because as I said earlier, if you are not the SIS white, hetero, you know, man and in our society, then then you are inherently against the convention, thus, you are mad, thus you are the disabled, thus you are this right. So, so, if you exist counter to that, that, that is so important, and that, and that is how the man movement is actually connected to all of these social justice movements and identities and ideologies. And, you know, and in that respect, and when I speak to ableism, and sadism ableism asks that, you know, our, our society is so inaccessible to to our bodies and minds. And we discriminate on the basis of, well, why why aren't you physically there? Why aren't you mentally there? Why aren't you here? Why aren't you there? You know, why aren't you contributing to the productivity? And neoliberalism? capitalism would like you to write something interesting I was just reading about is called design, justice and design justice really speaks to how accessible tools that things in our society or just just technology in general, and many different things are designed without considering oppressed identities, oppressed people So, um, and how a design justice framework really speaks to how do we design things intentionally in the consideration of all oppressed people? How do we make them more accessible? It's where Tech Tech like technology, and where disability justice, and where information science and where all of these things meet in the middle, right is design justice. And it's, it's it's so important to our ever evolving society, especially as technology. And the use of social media, you know, is, is at the, at the center of a lot of our emotional distress. So I wanted to mention that too, because there's a mass marketing of human information. When we think about what is popular in Silicon Valley right now. It is what makes you tick, what information we are selling, which is the same weapon that the mental health Industrial Complex has utilized for years. And it is it is at the center. Yeah, absolutely. You know, all the genetic studies that they do the genome wide association studies where they just basically collect tons of information. That's the new way to find a biomarker, they are developing blood tests, where they take all the information from all the Bipolars. And these are the things that they have in common in their blood. Meanwhile, what are these things these things could be or the creativity or the, you know, the abilities to interact with our ancestors, because we hear these voices, I think they start from the beginning, like, these are the people who don't add up. And these are their genes. And let's learn from that. Nobody gets into the space that is, you know, opening up to, you know, the magnificence of the universe and those connections, nobody's even asking you a question as to how it's going on. And again, that's kind of the interesting link with psychedelic medicine. It's a joke, because all of a sudden, psychiatry is like, Oh, you're interested in what's going on inside of the mind, you are dealing with your own trauma as you go through this experience. And you know, we'll lead you through it. Well, you just basically for, like, over 150 years have said that what's the personal individual's subjective experience? Doesn't matter anyway, because it's not real. It's only objectivity that we can measure, which is behaviors. So they are as they are trying to claim the next revolution behind these new, you know, plant medicines, or that they're gonna start rolling out. They are also saying that Alright, well, now we're rewriting how we view it. But we're still in charge. Yeah, yeah. And meanwhile, they're, they're not talking about that war on drugs. I was a war on race and a war on hippies.

Jen Gaita Siciliano:

Yeah, that's right. Because it all started right in the 60s and 70s, where everyone was, like doing their psychedelics, and the world started falling apart in their minds in, I look back at that time, and I'm like, Oh, my God, like, that could have been the time the turning point. And instead, the war on drugs came in.

Vesper Moore:

it was containing a state of awakening a state of madness, that that would liberate the public. And then, you know, during that early those early 80s, it was 1980, that the DSM three came out, when they started, like, really, really pushing more than ever the biochemical model. And it was like one in the same it was like, well, we can't use your, we don't want those drugs to that you guys have, they're going to waken you, we're going to use our drugs. And we're going to give these to you because you guys actually have mental problems, because that's really what it was they they put a lot of us in that group who were on the fringe, you know, of society. What's really interesting about that is is you know, being someone who, you know, another piece of my work is working with Madness Network News, in those historical archives of our movement in the United States, and then internationally, that around 1984, that anti psychiatry journal to spanned it, it was actually all of the all the information related to it was thrown away, and it was right around the time where, where what you were describing happened, right, and then the professionalization of peer support. So it was kind of like, let's give a little something to all of you. Let's you know, the rowdiness calms down, a lot of our people are dying, right? Because they're, they're over drugs, you know, because of these medications. And, and then, you know, and then we see, like, almost a subsiding, right, that occurs along with a series of other movements that were occurring at that time, and psychedelics and oppressed identities. And, you know, and survivors of many different contexts. Were at the center of that that was what the government was seeking it Right. And that's no secret you can look at ABS excellent administration. There were public statements released about it, the only way they could control the blacks and the hippies is how the quote refers to it as was was if they made marijuana illegal, and they associated with the blacks and cocaine and so on and so forth so. And let me go back to what you were saying, also, I know that you are now involved with preserving that or revitalized and really the madness network news. Now, when you say that it was like, thrown into the ocean? Like, are you using that like, figuratively? No, no, I'm using that literally. That was a conversation that I had with with Sally's and men a few years ago. And she said, some of the last editors who are part of that paper had discourse amongst each other, because there was a separation between, you know, members of our movement who are going the anti psychiatry route and the members of our movement who are going to consumer route. And, and they didn't want to co opt madness network news. So they wanted to destroy it, and they threw it into the San Francisco Bay. I don't know if everybody understands how terrible that is. Because at the time, there was no data that you can get anywhere else. Everything was hardcopy, and once that was destroyed, that's destruction. That's it, there's no reclaiming that. It's not like you could find it on the Internet somewhere. It's over. Yeah. See, that's so sad to me, I really didn't realize that. And then you had mentioned that and I was like, Oh, my God, like, we are truly starting over. They had documented how they got there, they had documented contacts that they were sending things to, they had documented a lot of things, all that led to the ocean. And the historical archives, you find now are generally through universities or libraries or different spaces, right? Well, now now because of madness, network, news.com, they're in a central place that's not owned by an academic institution, which was my goal. And an accessible to the public for free. So and, and the idea with that is, is that so people can read through and be like, this is, these are the very beginnings and you can follow it and see what happens, you know, and how we led to where we are now. That's amazing. So people can access that material right now online, there's like, yeah, that doesn't work. news.com. Everyone check that out? Because this is huge. Yeah, they, they just go under the archives, and you can see scanned copies, I did work on some accessible copies. But they're, you know, we're building a team around transcription to type them out. You know, so that takes some time, but all of the scanned copies are available, and you can zoom in and wow, do what you need. That's incredible. This, you know, the effort that you're leading, it's really revolutionary, and is unbelievable. And, and, you know, we are getting very close to running out of time. And that just, it kills me because I have to have you back, because I barely got through any of my notes. Okay. Let me just point out just a couple more things, okay. Because there's so important. There's a couple of things that you talked about in terms of identity and capitalism. But one thing that you say is, value is not inherent on what we can produce for a capitalist society, but rather what we can determine value for ourselves. So in the way that we treat mental illness, it's clear that we place value on the wrong issues, like how do we reclaim the right values? How do we push those new values forward? Hmm, such a crucial question, because the thing is, is that you have to dismantle capitalism, to to achieve it. Right, you just have to, and the thing, and the reason why I say that is is that it is contingent on, you know, capitalism is contingent on what we can produce and what and what we do, it just is that's how it was constructed. That's how it has existed, that is how it exists now. Um, and, and the thing is, is that is that as long as you know, our madness, in quotes, inhibits what we can produce or what we can do, right? By the definition of this society, it will always be problematic, right? So in order for us to get there, we would have to dismantle it. Please, how's this gonna happen? We have to call out for this dismantling. Well, you know, what part of the dismantling is is letting go of our attachment to it. Yes. Because once we start saying, Well, you know what we don't really need I mean, I've tried to live like a non capitalist life. Like I just simplify my life to such a degree that I try not to, you know, I mean, I'm all about frugality, and like stretching, any small dollar I can make because I don't want To invest in making any full time commitment to like working within the system. So there's different choices I guess you can make. And then once you start making those choices, you start seeing, this doesn't have to be the center of my understanding how things should be, we tend to like, idolize our system here, as if we have it all together. And this is the best system that's ever been created. So far. It's really ridiculous. So I just, I pray that these things start changing. And I am just so thrilled that someone like you is out on the frontlines putting so much more light on such an important subject. And, you know, this, this, just a million more things, but what I, I wanted you to just give me one just last insight on why this is also speaking to, I guess, a spiritual issue. If you could just give me a quickie on that, because there's so much there. But I don't want to leave this conversation without you giving me a little bit of your insight on that. So, this is a spiritual issue because there is this idea of and historically this has existed in a lot of spiritual practices and religions you know, you have if you were to think about like a multi theistic religion, or a pop polytheistic Tsar versus a monotheistic, right, if you're looking at like Judaism, for example, if you'll get early Kabbalah, right, you have the idea that, that, that that what is now defined as God right exists in multitude exists in a lot of different spaces exists in, in all of us, right? We are all God and then you see that another practices with you know, with paganism and and, and other spiritual spaces where, where there are many gods and there's an interconnection to nature and life and everything. Such a big perspective, right? How do we get right there? And the thing is, is that is that when we speak to madness, and we speak to what is defined as mad that the state of hearing voices, extreme experiences or otherwise, as we define it in our society, it's often a connection to that divine or that spiritual, that we then criminalized and demonized, because it doesn't exist within the confines of the Christian Hajj anonyme. And I think that that is so so important to speak to when we speak to Mad liberation. We're also speaking to spiritual liberation on many fronts, a state of awakening, a state of spiritual emergence. Reemergence, if you will. And, you know, I always think of the term spiritual emergence or awakening, I mean, the thing is, is that we're there. We're here right now. Yeah, we're actually in that spiritual state. We just don't know it. We don't often yet. We just need to tap into it sometimes to tap into that network, if you will. It involves going a little a little mad a little crazy. Yeah, I think you get there through men sometimes, you know, so embracing the mad journey guys. That's what this is about. So listen, Vesper, you are accessible to people. Okay, how can they find you? Can you give us your social media links, any other kinds of things that they could look up? How can you be located and all this stuff be seen? Follow me on Instagram @Vesper_J_Moore to follow me at Facebook, which is @VesperMoore777. And you can follow me on Twitter, I believe, as @MooreVesper, LinkedIn @Vesper Moore. You can also just type in Vesper Moore and see what comes up.

Jen Gaita Siciliano:

It should be something that you make sure you do today because it's amazing stuff. Vesper, thank you so much. You are amazing. I am thrilled to meet you to begin this discourse. And hopefully we can have more conversations like this. Thank you so much for joining the show.

Vesper Moore:

Thank you for having me.

Jen Gaita Siciliano:

Thanks for listening to Not As Crazy As You Think. And don't forget to subscribe to my YouTube channel. And remember, mental health is attainable for anyone, especially those labeled with mental illness. Until next time, peace out!